Talk:Scotland

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Contents

[edit] Just the facts Ma'am

Rules for this section

  1. Only facts are to be included, No dialogs or pleads or explanations, FACTS only.
  2. There is the caveat to this section, if you do not produce a fact or want to chat you must put them into the Passionate factless comments section
    • If you do not they will be placed there for you.
  3. Try to link your views to relevant articles and cite as much as you can. Use the following format for the link <ref>place link here</ref>
  4. If a fact is already given do not list it again, it is a fact not a repetition. You can add citations to a poorly sourced fact
  5. Facts can be opposed but place the rebuttal fact below the original one. (eg # * )
  6. You CAN group these into sections if the list becomes unwieldy
  7. Facts can be removed if they have no supporting evidence or are vandalism
  8. You cannot remove a true and cited fact from a verifiable source Remember Facts CAN oppose each other; Facts can be given that seam to oppose each other but are talking about minute differences. If agreed by most in play only <s></s> strike out that fact.

[edit] Just the facts

FACTS:

  1. Scotland is a part of the UK
  2. The UK has no single written constitution. So unlike the United States Constitution the names of the subdivisions of the UK are left constitutionally undefined. (Actually, while states are referred to, there is no "constitutionally defined" term in the Constitution for US subdivisions, either. The term predates the Constitution and the Articles of Confederation, yet exists anyway. -Rrius (talk) 07:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC))
  3. Scotland is a former independent kingdom
  4. Scotland is called a home nation
  5. Scotland is called a constituent country of the UK[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11]
  6. Scotland is called a country[12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21]
  7. Scotland is called a nation[22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29]
  8. Scotland is not a Nation state.
  9. Scotland is not an independent country[30]
  10. The word country has been known to be misinterpreted to signify an independent state[30][11]
  11. The word nation has been known to be misinterpreted to signify an independent state[31][32]
  12. Scotland is not a nation in the eye of international law, but Scotsmen form a nation.[33]
  13. Scotland is a kingdom within the UK[34][35]

[edit] References

[edit] Passionate factless comments

Previous comments archived here.

[edit] Slight edit to present intro

What does the page think of the edit here - I think it should be roundly uncontroversial, tidies up the referencing, groups geography and political status in the same sentences (thus, I believe, clarifying both points) and improves the sentence structure.

As you can see, it has been reverted without justification, so I'm basically seeking some consensus in favour. --Breadandcheese (talk) 16:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I think this is something that others have requested above. I could live with either version though. I suspect, however, others will be opposed or aligned to this along the usual divide. --Jza84 |  Talk  16:10, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I've not really involved myself in the debate or by any means read the entirety of the arguments presented here, but it is simply a reordering of information rather than any change in content. --Breadandcheese (talk) 16:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I prefer the version as edited by Breadandcheese. Regrettably I :think ANY edit is probably 'controversial' at this time, in the sense that it will stir up debate. However I wouldn't either take it personally or criticise the reverter. Let's spend a little time testing the water before remaking the edit. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, a variation of that offered by User:UKPhoenix79 is my preference:

Scotland (Gaelic: Alba) is a country in the United Kingdom. Located in Northern Europe and occupying the northern third of the island of Great Britain, Scotland's only land border is with England. It is bounded by the North Sea to the east, the Atlantic Ocean to the north and west, and the North Channel and Irish Sea to the southwest. In addition to the mainland, Scotland consists of over 790 islands. Scotland's capital city is Edinburgh, which is the 2nd largest city in Scotland and the 7th largest city in the UK. Formerly the Kingdom of Scotland, since 1707 Scotland has been a constituent part of the Kingdom of Great Britain and its successor state, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Seems to cover everything, for me anyway. 80.41.216.180 (talk) 17:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

yep, nothing wrong with that in my view. Only thing I don't like, and it's not central to the dispute, is "7th largest city", which is unnecessary — article isn't about Edinburgh — and misleading — means of defining city boundaries and of measuring city population are arbitrary and vary. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the compliment :0) -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 22:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Sigh.Looks like another edit war on its way, me thinks I'll step back again! --Jack forbes (talk) 18:06, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Just checking that "successor state" is technically accurate/verifiable. To my humble knowledge UKGBNI didn't succeed GB - Ireland joined the union, then part of it seceded. Do please correct me if I'm wrong. --Jza84 |  Talk  18:49, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I like it almost entirely, but taking account of a few points raised here [Emphasis on alterations:
Scotland (Gaelic: Alba) is a country in the United Kingdom. Located in Northern Europe and occupying the northern third of the island of Great Britain, Scotland's only land border is with England to the south. It is bounded by the North Sea to the east, the Atlantic Ocean to the north and west, and the North Channel and Irish Sea to the southwest. In addition to the mainland, Scotland consists of over 790 islands. Scotland's capital city is Edinburgh, which is the second largest cityin Scotland and the 7th largest city in the UK. Formerly the Kingdom of Scotland, since 1707 Scotland has been a constituent part of the Kingdom of Great Britain and subsequently, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
As for successor states: I don't believe it is accurate, although I am prepared to be corrected on that. It is a particular legal term which can be easily omitted until accuracy can be demonstrated. --Breadandcheese (talk) 21:27, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Dislike constituent part linking to constituent country its almost an easter egg the link should go to Subdivisions of the United Kingdom --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 21:44, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Happy also to lose the "7th largest city". The "successor state" to the Kingdom of Great Britian was indeed, as the CIA Factbook confirms, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. However, given that the current state only came into being in 1927, perhaps the insertion of the word "eventual" or "modern" or "current", or some similar qualification, would provide sufficient clarification, or alternatively:
Scotland (Gaelic: Alba) is a country in the United Kingdom. Located in Northern Europe and occupying the northern third of the island of Great Britain, Scotland's only land border is with England. It is bounded by the North Sea to the east, the Atlantic Ocean to the north and west, and the North Channel and Irish Sea to the southwest. The capital city is Edinburgh and in addition to the mainland, Scotland consists of over 790 islands. Formerly the Kingdom of Scotland, since 1707 Scotland has been a constituent part of the Kingdom of Great Britain and its modern successor state; the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
The above would leave no question as to Scotland's status. The "successor state" is included in the wiki-page (although needless to say not "reliable"), but a definition can be found here and here. 80.41.216.180 (talk)
Nice! It will help this article to be the first UK country to become WP:FA and hits all the major points that we need in an introduction per WP:LEAD. What do others think?
80.41.216.180, 80.41.252.104, 80.41.231.246, 80.41.255.137 your ip keeps on changing any chance that you might register? -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 22:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
We're nearly there. The only slight problem I have is that we need to mention the fact that the UK is a sovereign state. It just needs to be really clear. Some people mightn't know what the UK is and therefore the meaning of the sentence will be lost on them Eg. Scotland (Gaelic: Alba) is a country which is a part of the sovereign state known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Do you see what I'm getting at?Wikipéire (talk) 00:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
If others agree to that I'll be ok with it, though I do believe its rather clunky and unnecessary. I would just like to note that there is little precedence I have found for making such a statement. Just look at the examples I have given above. -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 00:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

How about something a bit less "clunky":

Scotland (Gaelic: Alba) is a country within the sovereign state of the United Kingdom. Located in Northern Europe and occupying the northern third of the island of Great Britain, Scotland's only land border is with England. It is bounded by the North Sea to the east, the Atlantic Ocean to the north and west, and the North Channel and Irish Sea to the southwest. The capital city is Edinburgh and in addition to the mainland, Scotland consists of over 790 islands. Formerly the Kingdom of Scotland, since 1707 Scotland has been a constituent part of the Kingdom of Great Britain and its modern successor state; the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Loaded with more compromises than the 'Good Friday Agreement', but hopefully something which will lead to a stable article. 80.41.214.75 (talk) 09:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Loaded with more compromises than the Good Friday Agreement LOL!!! So would that make you Tony Blair? -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 10:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Perfect.Wikipéire (talk) 11:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Sounds good.--Breadandcheese (talk) 14:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Very happy with that, and preferable to what we have now. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Still worried about the sentence beginning "Formerly the Kingdom of Scotland....". UKGBNI isn't a successor state of UKGB, whilst Scotland's former status is mentioned later in the lead. Remember, we have four paragraphs to play with, not one. --Jza84 |  Talk  15:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
The end of the paragraph says "Formerly the Kingdom of Scotland, since 1707 Scotland has been a constituent part of the Kingdom of Great Britain and its modern successor state; the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland." In view of this, do we need "within the sovereign state of the United Kingdom. " at the start. Why say that its part of the UK twice? 16:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
do we need "within the sovereign state of the United Kingdom. " at the start. We definiely need that bit at the start. I think its perfect. It removes all confusion. The bit at the end just explains the history behind it all. There's nothing wrong with it. This is all in my opinion of course.Wikipéire (talk) 16:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I fail to see why Scotland is part of the UK is mentioned twice this is just repetition also country should not link to Subdivisions of the United Kingdom --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 17:14, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)Sorry, but don't see this as an improvement and think the use of sovereign state is fluff and superfluous. Who would say that "Alberta is one of the sovereign state of Canada's prairie provinces or "California is a state located on the West Coast of the sovereign state of the United States". Why is it necessary for the United Kingdom to have to be described as a sovereign state, everybody knows it is— for pete's sake it is one of the best known countries in the world, permanent member of the security council of the UN, used to have an empire. Let's get realistic here.-Bill Reid | Talk 17:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes we absolutely need the mention of being part of the UK as far upfront as possible, because it is something non-Brits are often confused about. If we think it's repetitious we should drop the second mention, or move it further down the intro. However I think the second link adds to what is said in the first, because it gives some history.
Bill, you would be surprised how many non-Brits don't know whether England or Scotland or the UK or whoever are the 'sovereign state'. I have talked to many educated North Americans who don't know what countries are what in Britain. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I do see your point William, and indeed I do sympathise with your views but the problem here is all the people who think Scotland is a part of England! I myself recently had guests from Scotland to our house on the continent. They mentioned many Europeans and Americans thinking Scotland to be part of England! Totally ridiculous of course but nevertheless an important fact. --Cameron (t|p|c) 17:28, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes it is well known, but internationally the UK is widely known as Britain or even England so the fact that its a part of the UK needs to emphaised as well as the fact that is a sovereign state and it's not some state called England or Britain that Scotlands a part of.Wikipéire (talk) 18:18, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

This is an encyclopaedia not geography for idiots, if people think Scotland is part of England reading the article will prove them wrong. --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 18:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd have to agree. I think the article makes this quite clear. --Jza84 |  Talk  18:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd have to disagree with you there. It doesn't say anywhere that the UK is actually a state. It only hints at it. Considering it Scotland is a part of the Uk this fact is very important. This newer version only adds four words to the first sentence and it adds a huge amount of clarity. There is absolutely no confusion with the newest version which is want you want for the article to progress.Wikipéire (talk) 18:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Please check out every other country's entry; how many are described as "sovereign state". Bill Reid | Talk 18:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
The whole point of this consensus building is that Scotland and the UK is very different from anything else! If it weren't loads of other things wouldn't be mentioned either such as the fact that it is a 'country'. Anyway an answer. First ccountry I looked up was Ireland: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland It says sovereign state.Wikipéire (talk) 18:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree very much with Wikipéire. Republic_of_Ireland says that because a) it is true and b) there is a certain amount of confusion over what 'Ireland' is, just as there is over UK, Britain, Scotland etc. We should keep the statement in for exactly the same reasons.
Barryob you are underestimating the amount of explanation required. The people who don't know about Scotland are not idiots, it's just something they don't know (can you name the states of India?). Because it's a widespread confusion it needs to be cleared up early in the article. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Once again I must agree with DJ Clayworth...the explanation ought to be in the first part of the intro for minimum confusion. --Cameron (t|p|c) 19:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
No I dont know the states in India and the wikipeida article on the subject States and territories of India does not list them in the intro, neither does over-explaining Scotland's relationship with the UK in the intro the Government and politics section explains this --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 19:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) Yes, I should have said federated country. Ireland in no way is a comparable state. Scotland is described as a country because .... that's what it is. My point here is that using superfluous terms adds nothing to the article. If people come to the article and read Scotland is a country within the United Kingdom, what is confusing about that— if they are still confused they just follow the link and they find out; that's what links are for.-Bill Reid | Talk 19:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey, perhaps we could cram the whole article into the first paragraph, that would avoid confusion! :) --Jack forbes (talk) 19:11, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict x2) When comparing like entities you must not compare the topic with unlike entities. Scotland is not a Sovereign State as declared in Talk:Scotland#ffffff the Facts Ma'am so using the Republic of Ireland is a false comparison. One must compare with Subdivisions of a Sovereign State like Quebec to see if the comparison would be accurate. So far I have not seen any subdivisions that says the country it resides in is a sovereign state, it only states that it is a part of that country and links to the countries article. -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 19:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
The similarity with Republic of Ireland is not in the their status, but in the level of misunderstanding about the names. Many people don't understand the difference between Ireland the state, Ireland the island and Northern Ireland the consitituent country. Likewise many people don't understand the relationship between Scotland, England and the UK. That's why both of them get the status mentioned early. There is not the same level of misunderstanding over France or Australia, which is why they don't get their status mentioned early. It's all about serving our readers. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
EDIT CONFLICT: It's an extra four words. This newest introduction seems to be closest we have come to a consensus. The reasons for having it there (ie there is a lot of confusion about the UK outside Britain and Ireland) outweigh the argument that it 'over clarifies'
UKPhoenix79 I never compared Scotland with Ireland I compared Ireland with the UK. Your have contradicted yourself by comparing it with Quebec. That's not a country. Scotland is unique. There are no other 'countries' outside the UK that reside in a sovereign state so it needs to be clarified.Wikipéire (talk) 19:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
No not contradiction just facts we must compare with like entities. If you feel that Quebec is not similar many in that nation would be very angry with you and throw their begets in your general direction (not quite monty python I know) But I'm sure that there are many other examples such as Bavaria or the Flemish Region. But I have not really bothered to research for other former kingdoms inside a modern state. So when comparing please compare entities at the same level internationally. An independent State gets compared to an independent State, a subdivision of a State gets compared to another subdivision of a State. -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 19:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello again, don't mean to be boring, but what is wrong with the way it is now.Sorry for shouting, must be getting to me. --Jack forbes (talk) 19:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with what is there now, but I think the new version is better. Unfortunately with passions running high even tiny improvements require huge amounts of discussion. That's the way things work on pages like this. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
That all sounds fine, but as I'm sure you know not everyone agrees with your " tiny improvement. " As you say there is nothing wrong with the way it is now so why don't people use a little bit of commonsense and avoid another edit war. --Jack forbes (talk) 19:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Frankly I say we use it now and fiddle with it in the talk page for later :-) -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 19:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

As I said you can't compare Ireland with the UK. However Quebec is a component bit of Canada but it doesn't need repeating that Canada is a sovereign state. Bill Reid | Talk 19:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Once again there isn't the same level of misunderstanding (except possibly among members of the Parti Quebecois :-) ). But even in Quebec everyone knows that Canada is a sovereign state - I hate to say it but that's not always known about the UK - many people think the sovereign state is called England. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
(Edit conflict)I'm also a Canadian citizen and may I add that Quebec has never been discussed as a country nor as Bavaria of which I have spent many weeks in. The UK constituent countries are unique so mentioning the UK as a sovereign state is necessary to avoid confusion of how a country can be in a country. You are backing up your opinions with articles that are very different. You will need proper reasons why not to mention these four words.Wikipéire (talk) 19:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Did I say that Quebec was a country? But somebody else used Quebec and i followed up on it but as a federated country Canada is comparable to the UK; so are the United States and Australia. Are you saying that the general mass of people who come to WP are incapable of following links to the main article? Putting "sovereign state" in front of the United Kingdom is just unnecessary -Bill Reid | Talk 20:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes but Uk is the only place in the world where there is a 'country' within a country!! There is no confusion about the status of those other countries you mentioned but there is plenty of confusion around the world with the UK. They don't know what is is so simply adding four bloody words removes ALL the possible confusion.Wikipéire (talk) 20:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
And you don't think saying Scotland is part of the UK does that?--Jack forbes (talk) 20:17, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
No it doesn't as saying the word country instantly causes confusion. Again as lots of people don't know what the UK is so we need to establish what it is while talking about Scotland. Also people may just read country and assume it to be an independent country (none of the independent country pages say independent country just country) and read the UK as some kingdom witout realising its a state. Just adding the four words saying that the Uk is the sovereign state while Scotland is a country inside it removes all confusion.Wikipéire (talk) 20:28, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
From my experience living in Australia for a number of years it is actually Britain they are confused about, not United Kingdom! --Jack forbes (talk) 20:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Woooooaaaaahhhh there!!! We're in danger of descending into the same quagmire that surrounded the map issue. There is NO repeat NO version with which we will all be 100% satisfied, but for the sake of the article and the readers, can we not agree on the version proposed here? There are things within it which if it were down to me alone I would strip out, but there would only be arguments put forward by others for their reinsertion. I am happy that what is in the proposed version, and although not my first choice, it is something which I could live w